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An Interview with Ed Herr Conducted by Connie Fox Dr. Edwin L. Herr is retired after 35 years of service at Connie-- I want to ask you to start by talking about the first job you ever had. Ed-- Here job is loosely defined. I used to haul market baskets in my little red wagon from the local farmer's market for rich ladies. There were a lot of us little street urchins. We would come to this town market where these ladies would hire us to take their market baskets all over town. Usually they would give us a dime. Connie-- How old were you? Ed-- Oh...probably twelve. Interestingly enough, every Saturday, one very well dressed lady would come looking for me and I would take her baskets just a few blocks and she'd give me a dollar. Connie--Wow! Ed--I didn't know who she was at that time. My mother told me much later when I was home on leave from the Air Force that she owned the brothel in town. She was a very nice person. I was planning to go see her and thank her for her kindness years earlier, but unfortunately she was killed by one of her "girls." Connie--What impact did that have on you? Ed--I grew up in a working poor family. My dad was a laborer and poverty was never very far away. If you lived on the wrong side of the tracks, people treated you like you lived on the wrong side of the tracks. This lady was very dignified. The other ladies would treat us like the street urchins we were but this lady would treat me very differently. I'm sure that her gentleness and respect made me feel accepted and useful. Connie--Who were some of your mentors prior to college? Ed--I didn't really have a lot of mentors then. During high school I lived in a neighborhood that was not where college students lived. Even though I graduated 10th in the class of 240 no one ever talked to me about going to college... Connie--Not teachers...? Ed--or scholarships or whatever. Part of it was because I was in a general curriculum rather than a college prep curriculum. The general curriculum, in those days, allowed me to take all of the college prep courses, which I did, including language, math, and lab science. I also took the business education classes because I needed the skills. I needed a job. I knew very little about college or scholarships. In my family there was only one cousin and one uncle who ever graduated from high school and no one who went to college so there was no mentorship available in the family about going to college, obtaining financial aid, etc. As a result, the day after I graduated from high school I went to work in a shoe factory and worked there for almost a year before going to college and then off and on most of the time I was going to college. I decided to go to college one day in a poolroom. I was working in the shoe factory and shooting money pool and one of the guys came in that I had played sports with in high school. He said, "Are you ever going to go to college?" I said, "I don't know." He said, "I know where you can go cheap." "Really?" He said, "Why don't you write to the college about admission?" So I wrote to the college and said what do I have to do to get in? And the college registrar wrote back and said, "You're in." So I went! I started on a part-time basis and the following year became a full-time student washing dishes in the kitchen to earn my keep. Connie--Did you grow up in Ed--I did. I went to a state teacher's college and majored in business education. I never expected to get to graduate school or to be a teacher but I thought the business education skills, which added to the skills I got in high school, seemed to be practical. Connie--Did you have siblings? Were you an only child? Ed--I was. Connie--So you didn't even have brothers or sisters paving the way and showing you how to enter college? Ed--None. No, all of that is difficult. It's one of the reasons my wife and I (who's also an only child) wanted to have more than one child. Being an only child can be difficult a lot of times. I'm sure in some cases it can be great. So, anyway after college I immediately volunteered to go into active duty in the Air Force. After that I started to teach. Connie--Teach in... Ed--Of all things, when I got out of the Air Force, I taught in the high school from which I graduated, for one year. When I was a high school student and I was in all of these college prep courses, even though I was a general student, teachers just didn't think I should be there. I remember my English teacher, who was a very fine English teacher actually gave me an "A" in English. I'm sure it threw her for a loop but she was at least fair enough to give me the "A" anyway. I was going to junior prom with a "real" college prep girl and this teacher asked her, "Who are you going to the prom with?" And she said "Ed Herr." And the teacher said, "You can do better than that. He's only a general student." I am sure the teacher didn't mean to be insulting, but when you hear that kind of feedback, it does not do a lot for your ego. Connie--It sounds like you were the victim of social prejudice. Ed--Maybe so. Connie--So when you got into that high school as a teacher, how did your own personal experience of having been that general student impact the way you interacted with your students? Ed--I'm not sure. I mean I never had any trouble interacting with students on any level. I suspect that it made me more sympathetic to students in the vocational education curricula and students who came from low socioeconomic backgrounds. From my work experience up to that time, it made clear to me that there are an awful lot of bright people who are poor. When I worked in the shoe factory there were some very bright people. Many of them didn't graduate from high school. Yet they were basically very, very bright. Not educated, but bright. After I got out of the service I worked in heavy construction. I ran a jackhammer 12 hours a day. Did that for 3 summers so I could help to pay for graduate school. Three long summers. Again, I learned there that there are an awful lot of people in construction who are just amazingly gifted in math, conceptualization, and so forth but not educated. I guess I learned...a lot of the things that I wrote about through the years had to do with employment...things like when people went to work directly out of high school the society frequently treated them as second class citizens. And, in some cases, persons who have not gone to college and graduated from pigh school still are. It was true then. It's true now. It's been true for all of these years. It's such an unfortunate thing because the people who grow up to be the contractors, electricians, construction workers, plumbers and other skilled tradespersons glue this society together. And many of them are making quite good money. They're still treated like they are less than first class because they didn't go to college. I've talked with many who have come to my home, plumbers and electricians, And they feel very bitter about it because they are very successful, but not acknowledged as such by the media or many elements of the society. One of the consequences from a societal point of view is that we now have a problem in the It's one of the reasons we're bringing people in, importing people from other countries to work because we don't have the people who are queued up to do what work the society needs to have done. And we don't seem to understand that we're not creating our own work force in skilled areas, we are increasingly dependent on other nations for such skilled people. Yet, this is a terribly important problem, it seems to me, for the future of this country. Connie--I noticed on-line that there is an Edwin Herr Scholarship. Ed--Yes. There is an Edwin Herr Scholarship to study abroad at Connie--Shippensburg - that's the teacher's college you attended? Ed--Yes, now it's a state university, and an excellent school, and it now has a college of business. It didn't when I went there. But they treat me as an alumnus of the Connie--They're all claiming you. Ed--Yeah, it's interesting. As a matter of fact I'm going down in two weeks to give a speech on globalization for the Connie--That's neat. Why a study abroad scholarship? Ed--A couple of reasons. One is that through my career I've spent a lot of time on short trips and on sabbatical leaves overseas. My wife and the kids and I have been fortunate enough to live in Connie--We left off when you were teaching in the high school that you had also attended. How did you get from there to graduate school and counseling? Ed--I spent the first year teaching back at my home high school and decided that I needed more education if I were to be successful in education or elsewhere. I also had a couple of contacts with school counselors where I was teaching, which I found to be very unimpressive. Connie--Unimpressive? Ed--I won't go into that particularly, but I was disappointed in their attitudes toward students. At any rate, I decided to go to graduate school and was accepted to Teacher's College at Connie--What was a teacher-counselor's responsibility? Ed--I had a teaching assignment. Frequently what they would do was give you a couple of periods a day as a counselor. In my case, if I remember correctly, I taught four business education classes and then I had two periods a day to counsel. I was responsible for all of the non-college bound kids in the high school. There were four ladies who were college counselors and me. In an inner city school of 2600 students, few of whom went to college, I have a very large case load. I worked with these kids with whatever came up. A teacher-counselor was there as a referral source for students who were in academic or social trouble, working with kids who needed somebody to talk to about behavior charge, staying in school and many other problems, including being in trouble with teachers or with outside agencies, e.g. police. Connie--That was a time when counseling was primarily vocational counseling? Ed--No. I was doing the whole range of counselor functions. I didn't do much vocational work at the inner-city high school. But, after three years at the inner city high school, I became a full-time counselor at another school and did a lot of career counseling there. Connie--What were the next steps? Ed--Probably the most important was that right after finishing my Master's degree at Connie--How did they react? Ed--They were very good. While I was in the hospital, the principal kept saying, "When are you coming back to work?" And I kept saying, "I don't think I can ever come back." The physicians had told my parents I would probably be blind...so anyway the principal kept sending messages about when was I coming back to work. The accident was in July and I got out of the hospital in December and he wanted to know why I wasn't at work: "These kids need you. We're saving this job. Why don't you come up here and see me?" And I thought, well, what could I do except go show him that I couldn't go back to work? And so 1 went. My father went along. We went into the principal's office and he said, "Well, when are you coming back to work?" The burns that are visible are primarily on my hands. My face, for whatever reason, did not scar dramatically. I've seen burn victims with horrible scars. But I've got scars on my hands and legs...most people don't pay attention to your hands and your legs are covered. Connie--And had you not pointed it out I would not have noticed anything about your face either. Ed-- It took me a year to make a fist. I know they (hand scars) are there but a lot of people don't see them. I was very fortunate. And the surgeon was a real character. He practiced tough love. Connie--Sounds like your principal did, too. How has that experience affected your counseling work? Ed—I think it helps you understand more fully how people who are powerless, and say they are hurting, really feel. When I was in hospital I didn't expect to be able to go back to school counseling, I was concerned about having kids say, "Who is this monster? This guy looks terrible." So you have all these feelings about being isolated. After spending five months in the hospital you don't really want to get out because it's a protected environment and everybody's got problems there. But anyway, I went back to work and when you said, "How did the kids react?" the kids didn't pay attention to it at all. I thought I should wear white gloves and all that sort of thing. The Principal said you're not going to wear white gloves, that just calls attention to it. I was assigned to several kids who were in trouble. One kid's name was Carl and once I got back to work I was seeing him almost every day because he was really in trouble. And after about 3 weeks I guess he looked at me one day and said, "What the hell happened to your hands?" And I told him. And that was it. He was really the only kid that said anything. Had he said, " What the hell happened to your face?" I don't know how I would have responded. Connie--So now you are somewhere in between the masters and the doctoral program? Ed--Yes. I was just beginning the doctoral program and, actually, I lost a year. I had finished the masters the month before I was in this accident. I was returning from an active duty period in the Air Force and got into this accident during a bad rainstorm. Anyway I served as a school counselor and director of guidance while I was doing my doctoral work In my final year of the doctoral program, I was teaching, doing my coursework, trying to write my dissertation, I met my wife to be and got engaged. In addition, which is kind of funny, I was assigned as a Reserve Air Force Officer to the Director of Civil Defense for And then I was the Associate Dean for Research and Graduate Studies for 9 years and then I was Interim Dean twice for a year each, as well as Interim Head of the Department of Adult Education and Instructional Systems. I went back as a fulltime faculty member after I left the Deanship and retired in June 2003. Connie--How retired are you? Ed--Not very. Connie--That sounds a whole lot like working to me. Ed--I really enjoy those opportunities. And then I play in three bands and that sort of takes up the rest of the time. Connie-- What kind of music do you play? Ed--I play a trumpet. One band is the State College Area Municipal Band, which is a concert band. Seventy-five piece and it's really a very fine band. Then I play in the Senior Citizens Jazz Band and the Senior Citizens Dance Band. Every week it's three practices and... who knows? It could be three practices and three gigs. It's not unusual on Saturdays for me to play twice, maybe a gig in the afternoon and a gig in the evening. Or a dress rehearsal in the morning and a gig in the afternoon. We played a dance this past Tuesday evening, so there's lots of activity. That keeps me busy. My wife attends most of those concerts or performances and calls herself a groupie for our band. Great stuff. In the Dance Band and Jazz Band we play 40s and 50s work: Glenn Miller, Count Basie, Duke Ellington. That's pretty much it. Connie--I'm assuming that's relaxing to some extent. Even though it keeps you really busy. Ed--Yeah. Connie--What else does relaxation look like in your life? Ed--Oh...a little fishing now and then. Not nearly as much as I should be doing. Traveling. Some reading. For a while it was flying. Connie--As a pilot? Ed--Yes, I've pretty much given all of that up. I flew gliders for a long time. Flew power planes for a long time before that. Flew gliders for 15 or 20 years. Sail planes. Connie--What is the intrigue of gliders? Ed--It's a very pure form of flight. Since you don't have an engine you have to pay attention to what you're doing. Gliders are demanding. You take off at the end of a 200-foot cable being towed by an airplane. Connie--Is that in anyway a metaphor for your life? Ed--I never thought about it as a metaphor but it probably is. Flying gliders is really interesting. I've flown in formation with birds of all kinds. Gliders are pretty pure flying. You don't have an engine to give you power. You rely on rising air or lift. Or what's called ridge lift. In Connie--Wow! Just catching currents? Ed--Yes. A fourteen and a half-hour flight down and back. You really rely on two major sources of energy. There's a third but it's not very significant. The two are just rising air that at the top of it has a cumulus cloud. When you see cumulus clouds, those big white puffy clouds, they're really sitting on the top of a current of rising heated air. And when a cumulus cloud forms then the air cools and you're getting air coming out all over the sides of the cloud. And so what you do is use that rising air to get lift and you try to avoid flying into the cloud and then you try to get to the next cloud because in between there is air which is descending. And you look for things like cloud streets. A cloud street...(looking out of the expansive windows in the Omni Hotel at the CNN Center in Atlanta) those aren't exactly cumulus clouds out there now...but a cloud street is a series of clouds lined up close to each other. So you try to fly from one to the other, trying to gain lift without getting caught in down drafts and losing altitude between clouds. Connie--Are you saying street, like a road? Ed--Like a road. Which really means that there is one cumulus cloud after another and you can travel rapidly from one to the next one. You try to get from one cloud to the next without descending a lot. Because the down draft can be quite intense and you find yourself on the ground before you intended. When the westerly wind hits the Connie--Could you name a few colleagues or other folks that played a significant role in your career? Ed--Donald Super would certainly be one of those people. There were some other professors at Connie--Was finding your way like looking for the next cloud street? Ed--I think you are correct about that! Connie--Your involvement as a counselor educator spanned a pretty major portion of the counseling profession. What thoughts or advice would you offer to a new counselor coming into this profession Ed--I've been very fortunate. I joined APGA in 1959 and I've seen the maturing of the counseling profession. It's been fascinating to watch it move to professional maturity, through accreditation, development of ethical standards, to licensure statutes, and national certification. All of those things have occurred in my life time. Not because of me. It just so happens that I lived through that period of time. Counseling has gone from a, I'm trying to think of the word, from a ...in some ways almost an interest area to a profession. It has become distinguished as a mental health provider. It has taken its position with the other mental health providers and has established separate, unique competencies and important potential to serve a wide range of counse1ees. I've been involved, as have many other counselor educators, in a lot of legislative testimony through the years, increasingly advocating for counseling as a treatment of preference and arguing for acknowledgement of counseling as a very important instrument of social policy. Counselors coming into the profession, I think, I hope, realize what the previous generation of professional counselors and counselor educators have done for them. I look at Chi Sigma Iota and the variety of advocacy initiatives that are going on there. This honor society's commitment to excellence, to professionalization, to standards have been extremely influential. Chi Sigma Iota, the American Counseling Association and its earlier iterations, its various divisions, all of these entities have engaged in hard won battles in behalf of the counseling profession. These successes didn't suddenly appear and everybody said, "Isn't that wonderful?" It doesn't work that way. New counselors really need to look at their own commitment in relationship to the kind of commitment that has been made for them in terms of social policy, innovations in helping people find purpose and productivity, and helping people be rehabilitated on the margins of society, in the last 25, 30, 40 years. So when these new counselors come to the field they need to realize that they are inheriting a legacy. They have a major commitment to make to themselves and their clients. I say to my students: "If you're not serious about this, if you're trying to get away with Bs and Cs just to get through so you can have a degree, you're not only short changing yourself, you're short changing your clients." And I say, "If you're not willing to put all you can give towards becoming a counselor, don't do it." I guess for new counselors it's a matter of really making sure that you want to make a commitment to help other people and to do that means that you need to keep working on your competencies all the time and you've got to be looking at trends in the field. As I say to my doctoral students, but also masters' students, "You really need to see yourselves as statespersons for the field. It doesn't matter whether you are a one-man operation or a one-lady operation or whether you're a part of a large counseling program. Certainly if you have a doctoral degree you're going to be tagged as a person who can represent counseling and what it's about, articulate its goals, and how it can add value to the institution. All of those things are going to be expected of you. And that means you better know about the history of this field, where it's come from, what the issues have been and where it's trying to go, how it can add value to individuals and institutions, among other important issues. These are the things new counselors need to look at and begin to internalize because that's where the field is. Connie--And this is probably the last question. Given the breadth of your research interests, if you were starting your career over, knowing what you know now would there be other important questions that you would be asking? Ed--Researchers constantly generate new questions and observe new issues that need to be addressed. There is no end to the questions that need attention. Thus, there is a wealth of areas to be explored. Currently, there is a emphasis on identifying evidence-based counseling interventions. We have a very good research base, it's growing, but we still have to sort it out. We still have to put a matrix together of presenting problems, counseling interventions, and evidence of the effectiveness of these interventions, for whom, and under what conditions. show our results. In the latter stages of my career I have been much more involved in examining public policy in this nation and in others and the counseling issues related to public policy. Public policy changes the context and the infrastructure for counseling in many settings. Research in this area is very important. Related public policy issues are studies of cost-benefit analysis in the provision of counseling services and programs. I have spoken about this issue in many forums. The field of counseling started by advancing philosophical tenets when there wasn't any theory or research. We then built theory and we built research. But increasingly policy-makers are asking about accountability. They're saying, "Well, what's the cost of counseling and what's the benefit? How do we know what we're going to get for our money?" So this whole question of cost/benefit analysis and what it means in terms of policy makers, institutional administrators and so forth, are important research areas in a time of limited resources. We still, in my view, have not dealt with the working poor, the people who are not middle class. What kind of counseling services are they really getting? Who's providing them? Are they the right services? I look around and see all kind of persons in service jobs, retail jobs, with people in them earning the minimum wage, or just above minimum wage but they are still at the poverty level. Where do these people get services? They don't get them. A lot of them. And they certainly don't have the money to pay a counselor. There are all of these kinds of issues that are out there waiting for models. Models of pro-bono counseling, counseling in churches and other kinds of places where working poor people go. It seems to me that there are many conceptual and research issues to be addressed in these areas. In the case of international approaches to counseling and mental health there is still much research to be done. But, I'm not sure Americans ought to be doing it. As counseling has become a worldwide phenomenon there clearly is beginning to emerge wonderful research in other countries around the world. Theories which are indigenous theories to certain countries, and we're learning a lot about cultural diversity. A lot of countries are creating their own counseling theories, their own intervention structures, and their own public policies. There's a lot of research to be done there. Much of this work is being done by people in those countries. Americans have a role to play but it's not theirs alone to do. They have to be very careful about how they involve themselves so that they are not perceived as imposing American models on other nations. I think there are many career research studies to be pursued related to the changing organization of work around the world, the emerging skills necessary to be successful, the increased emphasis on workers to be their own career managers and to be personally flexible vis a vis adapting to change. Indeed, there is much important work to be done to understand new types of career patterns associated with the changes occurring in the organization of work. There's a lot more to do in technology. We still haven't applied technology in a magnitude that's close to what it could do as an adjunct to counseling. So the areas I talked about here would be, off the top of my head, some of the things that I would look at. New counselors and people who want to get into research really need to think about the niches that are available. What areas don't seem to have a lot of research? What areas of research are related to emerging trends? Some of the things I've already said are those niches. I'm sure there are plenty of others. So spend some time looking at the literature on research to determine what needs to be done and what is of interest to each of us as researchers. CSI © 2005 │All rights reserved │Updated 1 |
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